More Food for Thought
Well, this has been a great, and I mean GREAT discussion! Thank you to all who were willing to write such thoughtful and well reasoned comments. It has been very helpful to me and I hope to others.
Some follow up thoughts:
Very little comment addressed part of my question dealing with what masculine and feminine mean. One comment I heard frequently on and off line was "It depends what you mean by that."
Mmmmmm.....
These are very basic ideas, very basic words. In the 21st Century we don't know what they mean any more. John Wayne and Marilyn Monroe, we are not, and probably rightly so. Stereotypes are the enemy. So what are we left with? More "feminine" men? More "masculine" women? Perhaps this is just the problem. Boys don't know what it means to be a man anymore, girls a woman. Could this be one of the major reasons for the crippling divorce rate, even among Christians who supposedly hold marriage to be sacred? How about the increase in homosexuality?
I also leave you with another question: What do you think of I Peter 3: 1-6? Included in this passage: "Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands... Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, instead it should be that of your inner self...of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight...." (of course, this should be read in full context).
Liberals among you will probably just reject Peter as another male chauvinist. But if not, does this not at least hint at a biblical idea of femininity? I still find this hard to reconcile with encourageing our young girls to be agressive or assertive on the court, in the board room, or in the church.
Some follow up thoughts:
Very little comment addressed part of my question dealing with what masculine and feminine mean. One comment I heard frequently on and off line was "It depends what you mean by that."
Mmmmmm.....
These are very basic ideas, very basic words. In the 21st Century we don't know what they mean any more. John Wayne and Marilyn Monroe, we are not, and probably rightly so. Stereotypes are the enemy. So what are we left with? More "feminine" men? More "masculine" women? Perhaps this is just the problem. Boys don't know what it means to be a man anymore, girls a woman. Could this be one of the major reasons for the crippling divorce rate, even among Christians who supposedly hold marriage to be sacred? How about the increase in homosexuality?
I also leave you with another question: What do you think of I Peter 3: 1-6? Included in this passage: "Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands... Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, instead it should be that of your inner self...of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight...." (of course, this should be read in full context).
Liberals among you will probably just reject Peter as another male chauvinist. But if not, does this not at least hint at a biblical idea of femininity? I still find this hard to reconcile with encourageing our young girls to be agressive or assertive on the court, in the board room, or in the church.
posted by Rob | 1:26 PM
17 Comments:
Hi Rob-
That was frustrating...just wrote a long post that was deleted before I could post it. So I'll try to do a quick version.
Aaron told me about this conversation a week or so ago and I really enjoyed reading everyone's response. When we first got married I asked a Pastor's wife, "What does it mean to be a woman?" She didn't have an answer...maybe my question was too vague? But the very issue you have been discussing is so important to a healthy marriage...girls need to know what it is to be feminine, as boys need to know what real masculinity means. It is harder to discover that when already married, though I'm sure that it should be something we continue to learn about our entire lives. I really enjoyed what Amanda wrote...and agree that being a woman is about being a help-meet to our husbands...as well as being life-givers. If we aren't married then those qualities should still define us as women. There are other qualities that I believe to be feminine and masculine...
As far as sports, or dance, or chess club, karate, whatever...those may or may not be tools that I'll implement in teaching my daughters (Two of them now :) who God has created them to be as women. If they start to show negative (or even masculine) qualities while participating in them I'd probably (after looking to Aaron's leadership) take them out. A good list of feminine qualities I'm sure that I'd like to instill in my daughters can be found at the Vision Forum website (www.visionforum.com)
I'll list them below as well as some for boys to compare:
"1. Faith and Fortitude
The spirit of beautiful girlhood is alive in the girl who, with courage and fortitude, perseveres through the many challenges of life. She realizes that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” and consequently, strives for the principled course of action.
2. Purity & Contentment
To be pure in body, mind, and spirit is more precious than all the promises the world offers. Young ladies who experience a beautiful girlhood guard their hearts against anything that would rob them of purity, and are content to wait upon the Lord and trust the leadership of Mom and Dad.
3. Femininity & Grace
The truly beautiful girl is one who radiates that inner grace which only comes from the confidence in being a woman of God. She enjoys dressing like a lady and being about the business of women. Because of this, others think of her with respect. Her very comportment communicates a gentle, gracious spirit.
4. Enthusiasm & Industry
Proverbs tells us that a virtuous woman “works with her hands with delight,” and “does not eat the bread of idleness.” The truly beautiful girl is one who sees her life as a mission of service. What others view as a burden, she views as a blessing and opportunity.
5. Home & Hospitality
One of the defining qualities of beautiful girlhood is a love for home and hospitality. A young girl watches her mother and looks forward to the day when she, too, will have a family. While other girls are driven by wanderlust, the hospitable girl finds true contentment at home.
6. Joy & Friendship
The woman of God is joyful and seeks companionship with those who share the same vision. For the daughter who has embraced the beauty of Christian girlhood, the richest friendships begin within her family, where she learns to love and honor, and first learns the joy of belonging to another."
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1. Vision and Honor
“Where there is no vision, the people perish.” The same is true of boys. Without a vision for manhood, boys will perish. But true vision is cultivated by honor. The courageous boy longs to honor his father and his mother and to not just succeed, but to succeed his godly parents.
2. Faith & Fortitude
The first principle of courageous Christian boyhood is faith. True courage is an outgrowth of confidence in the sovereign will of God, the reflection of an abiding faith in Christ. The spirit of courageous boyhood is alive in the boy who perseveres through the many challenges of life.
3. Dominion & Scholarship
The courageous boy is on a mission from God to take dominion over the earth. This is why he loves to learn, to investigate, to master disciplines, and to search out the mysteries of creation. His basic textbook for life is the Holy Scriptures.
4. Loyalty & Patriotism
Behind the courage of a truly faithful boy is gratitude for his family, his nation, and for the tender mercies of God in his life, motivating him to demonstrate an unflinching loyalty. Therefore, he has the heart of a son and the spirit of a patriot.
5. Virtue & Duty
It takes courage to be a virtuous boy in an impure world. But the truly courageous boy is steadfast in his commitment to remain pure in body, mind, and spirit. He will not be governed by undisciplined passions, or swayed by dangerous peer influence, and learns to stand alone and unmovable in his convictions.
6. Adventure & Evangelism
The courageous boy is one who longs for the thrill of adventure and eschews the life of ease and sloth. This desire is not a pagan quest for self-glory, but is in pursuit of a higher cause—the advancement of the Gospel and Kingdom of Jesus Christ.
Rob,
The first Peter exhortation towards how a woman ought to dress has as its goal the conversion or at least reform of non-christian husbands or Chrstian husbands who are being disobedient. He is not, I think, trying to lay out a definition of what is feminine. I think that asking the question 'what is feminine' assumes too much. Rather we should ask 'does scripture encourage us to consider what is feminine and what is masculine and behave accordingly?' Like I said in my post to the previous blog, I think Galatians 3 "there is no longer male or female but all are one in Christ" should take center stage in this kind of discussion. For in that passage Paul is talking about identity and not mere behavior. I would argue that in scripture, passages that deal with core issues of identity should carry more wieght than passages that deal with behavior since behavior stems from identity. 'Out of the heart the mouth speaks.'
What does it mean then that all are one in Christ and that there is no longer male and female? That's a question scripture seems to endorse. What is the difference that used to exist between male and female that no longer exists because of Christ? The difference would be on par with the difference between slaves and free(which seems to be around authority and access to God) and the difference between Jew and Greek(which would be also be access to God).
I would also point to Matthew 6:25 when Jesus tells us not to worry about what we wear. How might that interpret Peter's prohibition against adorning one's body?
If both men and women find their identiy in Christ alone, then I don't think we should spend much time trying to figure out how to be male or female. Each sex and each individual should rather consider how they "be transformed by the renewing of their minds' rather than conformed to the world. I think Corinthians 12 and the variety of Gifts is a good place to look too to see how God doesn't divy up gifts by sex, but simply gives unique gifts to a diversity of people so as to drive us toward unity with each other, since none of us have all the gifts.
As for the list that Tori put forth.. I see men and women who exemplify both the virtues on the male and female side of the list. Each of those virtues should be lifted up and none of them should be restricted to one sex or the other. That would be to limit God's ability to give those gifts to whomever He wishes. Maybe that's the core of my issue here. Are we talking about what God gives and how to live that out? Or are we talking about what we achieve and what we should pursue? I think we ought to pursue Christ and discern together what Gift God has given us and how best to use them. If I as a man have the gift/passion/virtue of home and hospitality my responsibility to use those for God's purposes is just as high as a woman who has similar gifts.
-Travis
The way I approach looking at the difference between Masculine and Feminine does include those ideals of being transformed and not conformed and all are one in Christ.
But I also look to the specific sin that seperate each gender from God. I see that the biggest sin first demonstrated in the Garden of Eden by Adam was passivity. For me Masculine is shepparding. It is leading, protecting, and providing. The emphasis should be on teaching boys how to be good sheppards from the list that Tori provided for boys . But first how is passivity in men displayed. I see it has having two ugly heads. First in the indecisive and yeilding man. Second, in the dictator who has a need to control everything because of his insecurity and lack of confidence in others ability to follow. The emphasis on teaching boys how to be sheppards gives them the tools they need to help them combat their gender specific sin of passivity. However, ultimately only the Grace and Power of God can make a boy into a Godly man.
For women the gender sin I see from the Garden of Eden is overstepping. Instead of not doing enough like men, I see women trying to do too much. What I mean by that is that sense of needing to fill the void left by the passive man. Women overact, where men underact. Feminine is gentle support with emphasis on nurturing and caring for others. Probably the most difficult thing for women-only guessing-is being submissive to poor leadership or no leadership.
God gives us advice as to how to have victory over these sins. For men (husbands) to love their wives as Christ loves the church. For women (wives) to respect their husbands. Again, victory over sin only comes from both genders believing (trusting) Jesus as their sheppard and following Him.
The victory that God gives us those gender specific sins then helps each of us be transformed into the Godly man or Godly women. Once there the Godly man will be masculine (sheppard) and the Godly women will be feminine (gentle supporter).
In response to Jonathan. I think you have to do more work if you want to link the sins in the garden to gender specific sins. I do think you may be onto something though, but you can't just say because it was a man who sinned in this way then this is a male sin.
As for the shepherding/leadership submissive dichotomy...both men and women struggle with the sin side and exemplify the virtue side of these issues. As for shepherding, think Deborah or any one of the women who led churches in their homes. For submission the disciples all struggled with pride and a desire to be greater than the other.
I still think this is the wrong question. The question isn't how to be a godly man/woman but rather how to be godly period. Gender is a category for marriage but not for virtue.
Travis,
I'm an unmarried man, with no intention of getting married; does that mean I have no need for a gender identity?
Dean M.
In talking about the sins of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, I was trying to show that the enemy (the Devil) wants to thwart and destroy God's best for each of us. God had great reasons to create humans both male and female and each gender is different. We are first all humans and have things in common; we all have trouble with sin. I just think that some sins and temptations are more difficult for one gender to resist than for the other.
There will also be exceptions to the stereotypical Masculine and Feminine and even some found within God's word. But generally men are the providers and women are the nurturers.
We all need to be follow God's will for our individual lives whether we be male or female, married or single, etc. My explanation about the feminine is weak, because I have not thought much about the role a Godly women needs to take; I have focused my attention on the role of a Godly men.
Also as for advice to single people; I have little context to give any. I was married at the young age of 20 and did not really have a single life.
Dean,
Your identity comes from Christ first. The fact that you have a penis makes you male, but there's no one way to be male and being male isn't the core of who you are or should be. I think we get into big problems when we start assigning personality traits to genders and expect people to conform. In fact I think that's a big reason in the rise of homosexuality. Men who have traits that the culture says are femine traits then think that they must be homosexual. Rather as Christians we have greater freedom from Christ to see that he has made men with a wide variety of personality traits(some aggressive and assertive, some nurturing and compassionate and much more). We don't have to look at our penis to figure out what kind of person we should be. Rather we look at the cross and see Jesus as our example and conform to Him.
You don't NEED to find a gender idenity, it's given in your physical body. No matter how you behave you do so as a man, because of how your are built. But you do NEED a Christian identity.
Travis my friend-you have gone way out on a limb with that last entry and it has broken off!
I speak now as a former intstructor of human physiology and anatomy. Men and women are far more different than just their genitalia. We are different in our hormonal pathways, neural pathways, brain structure, bone structure, etc. Did you know even our knee joints are different?
It is a truism that "structure implies function." Biologists all know that the physical differences all point to one thing: birthing and raising offspring explain the differences in anatomy. Evolutionts say the same thing. The new book "The Female Brain" by a brain researcher in the Bay Area (and not a Christian,as far as I know) is just the latest book to point out we are different to the core.
Don't give in to the dark side of feminist propoganda. God or evolution clearly made us different. There is no doubt whatsoever. The question is Why and how do we live it out!
Rob
As Elizabeth Elliot once reflected: "Throughout the millennia of human history, up until the past two decades or so, people took for granted that the differences between men and women were so obvious as to need no comment. They accepted the way things were. But our easy assumptions have been assailed and confused, we have lost our bearings in a fog of rhetoric about something called equality, so that I find myself in the uncomfortable position of having to belabor to educated people what was once perfectly obvious to the simplest peasant."
Rob,
My point was not to say that we're not different in many physical ways. But rather to what do we look to discover how we should BEHAVE? Do we look to nature? Scripture says that nature is broken and fallen and that even our natural desires are not to be trusted. Romans 1. Our physical bodies do not guide us to know if we should be assertive or submissive, leaders or nurturers.
Plus Jesus has done something to eliminate at least some of the differences between men and women(ala Galatians 3). We should be asking what those differences are and what they are not.
Your original post suggested you are looking for scripture for guidance on how women should dress, and (in the post before) whether or not women should be encouraged to be assertive/agressive in sports. Where do these questions of yours come from? Do you have them already and then look to scripture for support or do they arise from passages you've been studying?
Anytime we enter into scripture with any agenda we're in trouble. We need to let scripture guide the questions we ask and pursue.
With that said I've been thinking more about this and I do think there is something about leadership and maleness that is given by God. But there needs to be a more specific definition of leadership. It's not all about authority but more about going first. I think being male does have something to do with taking risks, especially when it comes to loving a woman.
Go easy on the feminist propaganda assumptions! :)
Let me restate my main response. We live in a fallen world, which means we can no longer look to nature to know fully about God's intentions for us. This is my main argument against giving into homosexuality even if you're born that way. We look to Jesus instead to guide us how we ought to be. It may very well be that your right on the behaviors that should distinguish men and women but I don't think you've made the Biblical argument for it.
If you make an argument based on something other than scripture. Or if you use scripture to support an opinion you bring to it(out of context) then I think you'll find yourself in trouble when it comes to other debates.
I really do enjoy these blogs and responses. I hope you know I enter into this with a sincere desire to be centered on Christ and His word.
Rob,
A passage that challenges my argument is 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Paul argues that women should pray with their heads covered. His argument stems from the Genesis account of creation and from nature(surprising to me). It's a strange argument because he doesn't sound too convinced himself and in the end tells the church to judge for itself. Most churches no longer follow this custom that Paul argued for. I wonder what you think about that. Do you think women should have long hair and pray with their heads covered? If so, do you preach that? If not, how did you decide that it doesn't apply.
I need to ask myself the same questions. I'm always wary of writing things off that I'm uncomfortable with as just a local custom that was appropriate in that historical context and not in ours. That argument is often used to get out from under scripture we haven't really considered. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Travis,
Historical Background to 1 Corinthians 11:2-6.
There were many "priestesses" in Corinth whose form of worship to their goddess was to prostitute their bodies. One of their practices was to shave their heads so the men of the community would be able to recognize them as followers of the fertility goddess. This passage may be in reference to the women of Corinth "seperating" themselves from those women by having long hair and for those that did not to cover the heads. This explanation again puts a culture tone to this command that it is for a specific time and place, but the general command to judge for yourself at the end of the passage on how to act and look does apply to all times and all places, our Freedom in Christ. One way that Christian women today can "seperate" themselves from the modern cultural view of women as objects is to dress not as the women of the world, but again to cover themselves. There are ways to dress in feminine elogance and maintain their virtue. This advice would also apply to men to dress in masculine strength but maintain their honor.
I don't know if this helps or not.
Jonathan,
Thanks, that was helpful. Where would you look in scripture for guidance on "Feminine elegance" and "masculine strength"?
Travis,
It is more than just dress, It is internal, the way someone dresses is just an outward display of someone's heart.
Feminine Elegance is the easy one. Proverbs 31...Lists many of these internal (heart) traits that women should have.
The masculine strength is harder to pin down to a single chapter...
A reference for masculine strength can be "gleaned" from the story of Ruth. Try to look at the story from the point of view of Boaz and pull out some of the traits that he had. He acted with this masculine strength in the way he treated Ruth. I think he would be a good example to look to for men both married and single. His traits are not listed like in Proverbs 31 for women; but they can be identified, he was campassionate to the needy, obedient to the law, hardworking, leader of others, etc...
Travis-here is a great article on the headcovering issue-it is long, but worth it. I involves sound exegesis of the passage and logical applications for today: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cbmw/rbmw/chapter5.html
Rob
Here are some of the concluding remarks in the article referenced in my last comment:
The significance of this text for the twentieth century must be examined briefly. Am I suggesting that women return to wearing coverings or veils? No.{30} We must distinguish between the fundamental principle that underlies a text and the application of that principle in a specific culture. The fundamental principle is that the sexes, although equal, are also different. God has ordained that men have the responsibility to lead, while women have a complementary and supportive role. More specifically, if women pray and prophesy in church, they should do so under the authority of male headship. Now, in the first century, failure to wear a covering sent a signal to the congregation that a woman was rejecting the authority of male leadership. Paul was concerned about head coverings only because of the message they sent to people in that culture.
Today, except in certain religious groups, if a woman fails to wear a head covering while praying or prophesying, no one thinks she is in rebellion. Lack of head coverings sends no message at all in our culture. Nevertheless, that does not mean that this text does not apply to our culture. The principle still stands that women should pray and prophesy in a manner that makes it clear that they submit to male leadership. Clearly the attitude and the demeanor with which a woman prays and prophesies will be one indication of whether she is humble and submissive. The principle enunciated here should be applied in a variety of ways given the diversity of the human situation.
Moreover, both men and women today should dress so that they do not look like the opposite sex. Confusion of the sexes is contrary to the God-given sense that the sexes are distinct. For example, it would be wrong for a twentieth-century American male to wear a dress in public. It would violate his masculinity. Everything within a man would cry out against doing this because it would violate his appropriate sense of what it means to be a man. The point is not that women should not wear jeans or pants, but that in every culture there are certain kinds of adornment which become culturally acceptable norms of dress for men and women.
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