"Get Your Butts Down Ladies!"
The above command resonated across the soccer field as my 9 year old daughter and her teammates tried to follow the coach's instructions. It was an attempt to get them to block the ball from opposing players during practice. During the games, we heard and still hear (from different coaches now) "Come on ladies, be aggressive! " "Who wants the ball!!!???" "Go After It!!!"
My question is this: What is this doing to our girls? Are we teaching them to be...well, boys?
The larger question is this of course: What does "feminine" and "masuculine" mean anymore? Certainly, feminism has influenced our culture drastically, like it our not. It is now a given in secular culture that girls should play as much sports, shoot as many deer,have as many corporate management jobs, and fly as many jet fighters as boys. There is no distinction.
So what does it mean to be a woman, other than a few anatomical differences?
Ok, for us Christians, here is another question. As I have discussed here before, the Bible teaches us throughout that wives should submit to their husbands (again, it never tell husbands this, not even in Ephesians ,if you read the passage carefully-see the discussion on this blog on May 17 2006 "Death of Marriage II"), not to teach in church over men, etc. So, how can we expect our girls to grow up to be nurturing, supportive, or even submissive, when we are telling them to be aggressive on the court, soccerfield, office or military unit? Can a woman who has slugged the ball out of the park or shot an antelope through the heart be a successful, tender mother of a baby and love her husband with respect?
Well, frankly, I don't know.
But I doubt it.
This matters a lot to me. You see, I want my daughter to be the woman God meant her to be, not a product of current societal trends-nor do I want her to be a clone of myself or my wife. I pray for her to grow up to be a Godly woman, not a stereotype of my past -nor a product of post-modern theology. Sadly,there are precious few role models out there to look at.
I would love to hear people weigh in on this, especially you parents or women who were involved in sports, hunting, etc.
What say you?
My question is this: What is this doing to our girls? Are we teaching them to be...well, boys?
The larger question is this of course: What does "feminine" and "masuculine" mean anymore? Certainly, feminism has influenced our culture drastically, like it our not. It is now a given in secular culture that girls should play as much sports, shoot as many deer,have as many corporate management jobs, and fly as many jet fighters as boys. There is no distinction.
So what does it mean to be a woman, other than a few anatomical differences?
Ok, for us Christians, here is another question. As I have discussed here before, the Bible teaches us throughout that wives should submit to their husbands (again, it never tell husbands this, not even in Ephesians ,if you read the passage carefully-see the discussion on this blog on May 17 2006 "Death of Marriage II"), not to teach in church over men, etc. So, how can we expect our girls to grow up to be nurturing, supportive, or even submissive, when we are telling them to be aggressive on the court, soccerfield, office or military unit? Can a woman who has slugged the ball out of the park or shot an antelope through the heart be a successful, tender mother of a baby and love her husband with respect?
Well, frankly, I don't know.
But I doubt it.
This matters a lot to me. You see, I want my daughter to be the woman God meant her to be, not a product of current societal trends-nor do I want her to be a clone of myself or my wife. I pray for her to grow up to be a Godly woman, not a stereotype of my past -nor a product of post-modern theology. Sadly,there are precious few role models out there to look at.
I would love to hear people weigh in on this, especially you parents or women who were involved in sports, hunting, etc.
What say you?
posted by Rob | 11:19 AM
16 Comments:
I don't wish to participate in a religous debate on this subject, but here is a health perspective to include in your cost benefit analysis.
Childhood obesity is a growing problem globally. Obesity and physical inactivity are independent risk factors for a huge range of diseases, including cardiovascular disease (the number one killer) and diabetes.
A study published in the Journal of Adolescent Health this year found adolescent girls who participate in sports in eighth, ninth, and 12th grades are more likely to be vigorously active in 12th grade. The authors conluded that "sport participation contributes to overall vigorous physical activity during late adolescence, when overall physical activity is known to decline precipitously."
(J Adolesc Health. 2006 Oct;39(4):523-9. Epub 2006 Jul 10)
Other studies show that independent of other factors, children of both sexes who participate in sport/vigorous recreational activity have higher levels of emotional wellbeing. EX: Lancet. 1996 Jun 29;347(9018):1789-92.
Being active in your youth decreases the risk of osteoporosis later in life.
Other researchers have linked girls participation in sports to higher self esteem and confidence and lower levels of depression and anxiety.
Women are not lesser and should not be submissive to men!!! Women can still be good loving mothers and play sports. Aren't men loving fathers and they play sports. The world is changing sounds like you need to change with it and let your daughter.
People commonly read what they want to read (and want to argue with), not what was actually written.
I invite the previous two posters to actually read the article for what it says, not what you think it says.
Mmmmmm... interesting juxtaposition of thoughts in the first two comments. Childhood obesity grows while feminism and the rejection of male leadership grows. Is there a connection I wonder? Could it be that while dad AND mom pursue their busy careers, little junior is left alone to play video games and given pizza every night because no one is there to fix a balanced meal?
Just a thought..........
It occurs to me that the coach's comment in the headline will be the LAST time a male mentions that part of her anatomy- without getting decked!
I'm not sure how anonymous 2 reached the conclusion that I hadn't read the post. I simply think it's wise to consider the potential benefits of sports for girls before formulating an official position on the matter. I wasn't arguing-- I was trying to add something to the discussion based on what I know about, and that's health issues. Women are gaining weight at faster rates than men (despite the fact that there are currently more overweight men than women), and girls are at greater risk for physical inactivity as they get older-- so I think it's important to consider those factors and the role sports can play in prevention of chronic disease, regardless of whatever you ultimately decide...as a side note i don't have a study to quote on this but i am confident that there are women who are submissive to their husbands regardless of whether or not they have played sports; being submissive is a decision, and being athletic or competitive doesnt preclude women from that decision if they are convicted of it.
Well, here goes. My first comment in your blog.
I don't think that these sports are going to have a negative affect on whether or not our daughters submit to their husbands. I firmly believe that, as we teach our daughters to love and honor God, serve others, and love others, they will be able to separate what they do in the name of sport, from what they do with the people with whom they come in contact.
It is our job, however, to teach them that the Bible is relevant in all circumstances, even soccer! So they aren't to purposely trip the other players, just to get an advantage in soccer, because we are already teaching them to show kindness, turn the other cheek, and do unto others, etc. As we have this open dialog with them about life, they will know the difference between going for the ball, and following the rules of the game, and going after someone at recess! (or being cutthroat in business or fighting for leadership in the home in later years). So the key is teaching them to walk as Jesus walked, in whatever activity they are involved in.
There you go, my two cents!
Fun conversation. Lynette certainly led it in an interesting direction. Here's another thought about sports and girls. According to Lauren Winner in her book "Real Sex" girls who play sports are more likely to refrain from sex until marriage than any other group. Why? Because they have a robust, social, public way to use thier bodies and get familiar with their bodies.
I do think there is a problem with the feminization of everything, but not in the ways you suggest. I think one of the sad things we do to young women is silence their voice. Ever notice the difference between a 5th grade girl and a 9th grade girl. Fifth grade girls tend to be much more assertive and outspoken and well not-girly, but we quickly hammer them into the silent but pretty mold. I'm pretty confident that this is not what God intends women to be like.
I don't hold to the belief that women ought not have authority over men. I know that statement is in direct conflict with a verse in scripture, but not in conflict with the whole of scripture. Women in the Bible are prophets, leaders of armies, leaders of house churches, evangelists, co-workers with Paul. I think we ought to seriously consider that there were specific cultural issues that led to Paul's statement about women not having authority over men. We ought also to ask how that fits with his statments in galatians 'there is no longer male or female but all are one in Christ.'
As for what's feminine and masculine, I don't know. I don't know how you would go about deciding apart from experience. I think Christians ought to be open to the full variety of gifts given generously to the whole of creation. That's going to be a very unique combination of typically male and female attributes in both sexes. I think it's a process of discovery more than comformity. We comform to Christ, not to "masculine" or "feminine". Christ certainly had the full complement of masculine assertiveness and feminine nurture. I believe He has set us free from the "gender straightjackets" the world creates.
Good topic. While I feel that our society is wrong in trying to equalize men and women, I am glad for the opportunities that women have today that they have not in the past. While the Bible does say that women should not teach men in church and that they should be submissive to their husbands, I do not see any other restrictions on what they can participate in. The Bible also tells men to love their wives as Christ loves the church. How often do we see that happening? My opinion is that if men truly start to honor their wives as Christ loves us, then the submission issue would not be a problem. Why is it that men can go kill each other on a sports field and then come home to be a loving caring father but women can't? I am probably an unusual male in that I really have no interest in sports, hunting, or fishing. Aileen, on the other hand, love football, loves to yell and cheer for her team. She laments that when she was young, she was not allowed to participate in team sports because she was a girl. I do not think we as a culture should force kids to play sports but I think we should allow them to participate and follow their heart if they do. We all have many roles in life. Just because we act a certain way in one role does not mean that we have to act the same way in other roles.
Ok, here comes the big one! I think that many of the things in the western church are derived from cultural ideals, not Biblical ideals. Where does it say in the Bible that women need to wear dresses? I see very few details about issues like this. I think we have become like the pharisees and created "rules" for how to act, dress, etc. to be "godly" when these issues are really not important. If we are honoring God in our hearts and serving Him from a pure heart then most of the outward stuff just does not matter. The world is a diverse group of people with lots of layers of cultural stuff, why can't we just teach about Jesus and having our hearts focused on Him rather than worrying about little details. And sure, if our girls want to kick some butt on the soccer field, lets cheer them on! I would like to see women really step up and fill the roles that God has called them to do. Look at people like Amy Carmichael. She was a terror to her parents because God blessed her with tenacity and a spirit of adventure that would be needed to carry out the work that He had for her to do. I think we need to be careful not to quench the gifts that God places in our kids - whether they are girls or boys. We have three girls. Olivia started life with a bang and has not stopped. She will accomplish things in life and no one will get in her way. Laurel is just the opposite. She loves girly things and is not at all the bulldozer that Olivia is.
Dave
Travis has articulated the sentiment and views I would have expressed if I had more time to engage in this…it’s nice to know I’m not alone in those views. (However I still think that notwithstanding the interpretations/beliefs expressed in the original post—which I admittedly don’t subscribe to—there are still good reasons for girls to participate in sports!)
Rob
You are asking a question without a single, correct answer: where do we draw the line on raising girls vs boys and how does the location of this line impact women in our society today. I don’t have a one-size-fits-all answer. I can offer some observations from my own daughters and from God’s Word.
I see unique personality traits in each of my kids that don’t seem to have anything to do with how I raised them or the influences around them. I may have strengthened some of those traits, but the traits seems to have been there as far back as when my kids started to display their uniqueness. Kiara’s gentle, peacemaking spirit was evident in her early childhood and is still in her today after participating in competitive sports. Alyssa’s compassion for others was there as a 2 year old and was there when slide tackling someone on the field and then checking if there were ok. It was also there when befriending a girl recently in Sunday School who seemed to have no other friends.
Where I see failure or flaw is in the extent with which we parents have our kids pursue some of these activities. They become all consuming, time-robbing activities that steal from our family time. The idea that I want my kid to get a college scholarship playing soccer starts to affect how our family spends time years before college is even a reality. I see more problems with this excess than I do with the exposure of my daughter to experiences of sports.
The Biblical principle to this is leaven, symbolic of sin. It can permeate things that would otherwise be holy and pure. We can take something that by itself is a great activity, promoting physical fitness, teaching teamwork skills, and providing a mechanism to have fun, and instead corrupt it by infusing it with pride, greed, and a host of other sins.
I’ve only addressed sports because that is the extent of my experience. I have never taken my daughters hunting, so I’ll leave thoughts on that to someone else. As someone who served in the military for 21+years, I will throw in that I will not encourage my daughters to serve in the military as I did. I believe there are greater callings for them in service to the Lord. However, if they choose to, I won’t take this as the beginning of the end for them.
When I read Proverbs 31:10-31 I see a woman who exemplifies a loving, nurturing, caring attitude but who can still compete successfully in the business world buying and selling fields, planting vineyards and selling the produce, making and selling clothes, etc.
Hope this makes some sense.
Your brother,
Kevin
I have coached girls athletic teams or coed teams since I was 17 ( so on and off for over 30 years). I am currently coaching a coed church softball team (ages 16 to 45). So I am a big advocate of girls/women being involved in sports. I am the father of 4 girls, each has of them were involved with sports starting at age 6. The oldest stopped at age 17. The second daugther is currently playing college basketball (currently 19) with no plans to stop playing for years. The third started at age 5 and is still participating at age 16 but only in recreational sports (quit high school sports and now plays on dad's coed softball team). The fourth started at age 5 and is still participating at age 13 with no end in sight. I think a bad coach can make sports a bad experience. We have been blessed with many good coaches. Our experience with not so good coaches has resulted in my involvement as a coach for my kids teams. I don't like the language your daugther's coach used. That's the type of stuff that prompted by involvement.
I think organized team sports that are charaterized as all play and/or equal play are good opportunities for all kids. It helps them build skills for life. Our girls participated mostly in team sports. I think team sports are important. We need to learn to work as a team as well as individually. Marriage is not an individual effort, it is a team effort. Raising kids is a team effort. Ministry is a team effort. Team sports is about working together. It is hard to give kids oppportunities to build team-work skills without a team atmosphere. The skills they learn may be used some day so they can coach their kids team ....
I think that my athletic daugthers are somewhat intimidating to the guys. The better they are at a sport the more intimidating they are. There have been very few guys with self-confidence issues at our front door. Those guys with strong character and leaders-in-the-making are the types of guys that are interested in our daugthers. Anyone else will not survive.
The college basketball player is incredibly driven to use her skills to honor the Lord. She is a example to many, both younger boys and younger girls. She doing what she loves and she's trying to honor the Lord as she does it. There are ministries like AIA that provide an opportunity to further the gospel and participate in team sports.
The participation in sports teams and being a good student at school requires using your time wisely. Between the time spent at school and sports, there is little time to waste. They are dedicated to sport and good grades. Their free time is used well. Without sports they have too much free time ... idleness is an opportunity to get into trouble.
It is hard to teach agressiveness. Some kids have it and many don't. They need to learn the skills for a sport more than being agreesive. I'll take an agressive kids for my team any day but I'd rather have a kid with good skills and a sense of the game. I think kids need to develop the skills of the game instead of agressiveness but aggressiveness is key to playing at the highest level (college and the pros).
As for the feminie issue, you need to see the gals that play on the women's college basketball team with my daughter. There is an amazing contrast between the sweat drenched hair of these women after a game and when those young women dress up for the end of the season party. They are very attractive feminine young women. Granted it not that way for all women in sports. I know about one team of college age women that know how to look and act feminine in addition to being aggressive, intense, skillful basketball players.
I agree that learning to be a nurturing mother is not usually picked-up on a soccer field or basketball court. So there needs to be more to life than just school and sports. My girls have learned nurturing from helping their mom with their sibiling, day-care kids, babysitting, and helping with young kids ministry at church.
Teaching your kid to respect others is something that should be done at home. Teaching kids to respect their sports coach is just another venue to reinforce the principle of respecting those in authority over you.
What a conversation. I have been thinking about this issue since the original post and only now can I formulate a response. Being a collegiate gymnast and growing up spending hours in the gym...and also having a 5 month old daughter to raise creates much to think on. After searching the scriptures for "women" and "feminine" and finishing a Bible study on Ruth,I would agree most with "Kevin". I'm not sure that the "old fashioned" view of women in dresses and in the kitchen is necessarily the Biblical model for women, but certainly we have something to learn from that model. Ruth was physically strong, we know that because she carried 60 pound sheaves of barley back from Boaz's field. But, she probably wasn't strong because she lifted weights 4 times a week:) But, we don't work in the field anymore, we have all washing machines and all modern convieniences. In Africa, manual labor makes those women very physically strong. So, how does that translate to today? I have sure become physically strong from carrying my daughter around and cleaning and doing laundry at home...for what that's worth.
Kevin also mentioned "Where I see failure or flaw is in the extent with which we parents have our kids pursue some of these activities. They become all consuming, time-robbing activities that steal from our family time." Need I say more. If all the programs and activities are taking away from your your daughter's time learning from mom how to cook a meal, help a neighbor, study the scriptures, or worship as a family maybe that in itself (regardles of the sport) is reason to rethink activities, as our family is.
I have one original idea and maybe it will spur on more conversation. In some sports we see girls acting like boys and possibly fostering homosexuality. ?? Many girls, as one anonymous writer pointed out, can be very feminine and very athletic at the same time and are not tempted to be "boys" off the playing field; but, what about the Christian that falls prey to sinful nature and begins to idolize the sport and become consumed with athletic culture and homosexuality?
In my mind, not having any experience to say this, every child is different. So, if my children are going to be involved in these sports (which, by the way, my husband and I are still undecided on) I will need to watch them carefully and make sure that they are not exhibiting signs of falling into homosexual practices and are females on and off the field. Right now I think that maybe for some girls soccer does not make them act like boys (Rob, your daughter...from what I see, is extremely feminine in her interactions off the field) and for others, it may be a temptation and in that case they need to be pulled form those activities which foster " male" tendencies.
On the other hand, do we want to put out girls in “feminine” activities like ballett where body image is the focus and other temptations are created?
I think we will stick to family activity time: riding bikes together, going to the park, and when they are older, going for runs with mom and dad. (that is the black and white way out of this one:) And in our time at home I will teach my daughter how to make clothing and submit to her authorities, and, most importantly, how to glorify God and enjoy Him forever in everything she does.
Rob- I've had to deal with similar "femininity vs masculinity" issues since becoming a Christian 10 years ago. In the world, everything is muddled and gray. I've come to the conclusion, however, that being feminine has little to do with how you look, if you hunt, or if you participate in sports. Personally, here in Wisconsin, hunting is the norm, and some very amazing women illustrate the help-meet role even there. My pastor's wife, an amazing and feminine woman, hunts with her husband and has been known to build a set of steps or two in her day. Does her husband see her as competing for his role? No. When would he have had time to build the steps? I also know some very Godly and feminine women who never learned to sew and can't cook their way out a of a paper bag. Are they less of a woman or in sin? I don't think so. Some men just like to cook and sew- less of a man? Yes! Just kidding, that's an obvious no as well!
Feminine is not about wearing dresses (Thank God! because I'd fail!) but is about that heart that God has created in us to be a helpmeet/help mate. I'm not married, but I can see the difference between men and women clearly- that noticing what needs to be done, what would really bless another person, that eagerness to help verses that direct singlemindedness that men typically exhibit. We were created for that purpose. We are hard wired in that way. Dressing in pink frills doesn't make you feminine, anymore than you wearing blue overalls makes a man. :)
(Deep thoughts by Amanda- wasn't Eve just as naked as Adam in the garden before the fall? God didn't point out that difference in Genesis! No frilly fig leaves for Eve!)
Also- the submission thing is an entirely different issue. I've heard this related to the military form of submission. Its a rank thing. Someone has to be calling the shots or giving the orders, or we'll all be out in the field of battle bumping onto each other. The enemy would have a pretty easy time of beating us if we're all too busy trying to lead to get out and fight. Why do people not have the same objections to submission in the work place or on the sport field? I guess maybe we do, but that all comes down to pride, wanting to be our own god, and not being willing to serve rather than be served. Again . . . another issue! Our role as women is not second fiddle. It is an AMAZING role created by God for us-for me, and I was created for it.
As for sports- anything that we get too involved in could be sin for us. Male or Female. The agressiveness so often seen in sports is contrary to the Word of God. The idolatry that is so common is worldly and carnal. I'm not saying that God does not want us there in those situations. Should we simply ignore those populations of people? Are we not called to sports as we are a certain profession or to live in a particular city? Is God not sovreign even there? Is that level of dicipline and desire inherently evil? No! The issue is in our hearts. If we are honest with ourselves, we know where our hearts lay on that spectrum from indifference to idolatry. We know where the line is. We so strongly object because we DO know . . . we just don't want to face it. If you throw a rock over the fence at the dog pound- the dog that barks the loudest is the one that got hit.
Anyway- we need to be less concerned with the outward and more with the heart. We are called to be in the world, but not OF the world. Touch lightly. God could have taken us out of this world upon salvation but He didn't. He wants us to be involved in it but not consumed by it. Parents- I understand that you have to examine these things carefully. You are going to be held accountable for how they turn out. Daunting! If God is calling you to keep them out of sports, or scouts, or 4-H or computer club, then do it! If not- then teach them that heart of humility and service that he so wants us all to have. Whatever we do, we should do it for the Glory of God.
Consider, too, all the references to athletics (running the race, a boxer beating the air) in the Bible. There is much to be learned from the devotion of athletes or God would not have used them as an illustration of our spiritual walks with Him.
May you all be blessed as you continue to search the Word of God! I hope that you all can make some sense of what God has shown me.
Amanda B
ps. yes, I said the word Naked in my first post on Rob's blog.
reading most of the posts, i stick with my first thought. that there has to be balance. and that balance is given at home. girls need to know that it's ok to be femanine and play sports. and it's ok to be a "tom-boy". so much of our culture screams at girls to be un-healthily skinny, and spend way too much money on clothes that will make them "better". girls are told that everything is wrong with their bodies and that they are just objects. sports are good and healthy but of course as many mentioned there are many down sides to it. anything a child partakes in has down sides and as parents we need to bring the balance by talking things out with our kids and process their activities along with what culture tells them along with the truth of God's word.
Does every woman in Christianity have to be feminine and submissive? I hope that is not what you are saying.
Hey, if you want a sure way to turn women into submissive creatures, then practice polygamy. Marry them young and don't educate them. Build walls around your compound and keep them pregnant. The living social experiment exists in your very State.
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