Even Jesus Didn't Have His Prayers Answered
Do you ever get frustrated with prayer?
I do.
There are so many things I pray for that seem to fit the will of God, at least in a moral sense. For example, I pray for people to come to Christ, a prodigal child to come back to his faith, a marriage to be restored. Many, many times the answer is: NO. Now, I know I am not alone in this. But it never occured to me that even Jesus experienced it too.
In Gesthemane, he asked the Father if he might spare him the cross.
No.
In John 17, beginning with v. 2o, Jesus prays for the unity of all believers. Now, you could inpterpret this a number of ways I suppose, but if you just think of denominations, schisms over spirtual gifts, etc. (not to mention the Reformation), it seems like once again:
No.
So if Jesus didn't have all this prayers answered, why should I?
Why should you?
What do you think?
I do.
There are so many things I pray for that seem to fit the will of God, at least in a moral sense. For example, I pray for people to come to Christ, a prodigal child to come back to his faith, a marriage to be restored. Many, many times the answer is: NO. Now, I know I am not alone in this. But it never occured to me that even Jesus experienced it too.
In Gesthemane, he asked the Father if he might spare him the cross.
No.
In John 17, beginning with v. 2o, Jesus prays for the unity of all believers. Now, you could inpterpret this a number of ways I suppose, but if you just think of denominations, schisms over spirtual gifts, etc. (not to mention the Reformation), it seems like once again:
No.
So if Jesus didn't have all this prayers answered, why should I?
Why should you?
What do you think?
posted by Rob | 12:47 PM
33 Comments:
Rob,
First of all, I disagree with you that Jesus did not have his prayers answered.
The prayer in the garden was answered "Yes".
The following explanation borrows from John Gill’s commentary. Christ hypothetically prays for God to take the cup from him “if it be possible” . There are two wills in Christ- his human nature that shows resistance toward suffering, and his diving nature/will that is always the same as his Father’s will. Was it possible that Christ would not die at this time? No. “ The removal of the cup from Christ was possible in itself, but not as things were circumstanced, and as matters then stood; and therefore it is hypothetically put, "if it be possible", as it was not; and that by reason of the decrees and purposes of God, which had fixed it, and are immutable; and on account of the covenant of grace, of which this was a considerable branch and article, and in which Christ had agreed unto it, and is unalterable; and also on the score of the prophecies of the Old Testament, in which it had been often spoken of; and therefore without it, how should the Scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? they would not have been the Scriptures of truth. Besides, Christ had foretold it himself once and again, and therefore consistent with the truth of his own predictions, it could not be dispensed with: add to all this, that the salvation of his people required his drinking it; that could not be brought about no other way in agreement with the veracity, faithfulness, justice, and holiness of God”
“The sense of this prayer to his God and Father is, that if his sufferings and death could not be dispensed with; if it was not consistent with the decrees of God, and the covenant of grace, that he should be excused from them; or if the glory of God, and the salvation of his people required it, that he must drink up that bitter cup, he was content to do it; desiring in all things to submit unto, and to fulfil his Father's will, though it was so irksome and disagreeable to nature”.
Secondly, in relation to John 17:20 and following, Jesus’ prayer was also answered “Yes”
All true believers share in the unity of salvation and the one true body of Christ is unified through the Holy Spirit. Yes, in an experiential, external sense there appears to be “disunity” amongst denominations etc. The visible church is not equivalent to the “invisible” church that is unified in Christ. There are many denominations that are filled with non-believers.
I believe that all my prayers are answered according to God’s sovereign decree and what will bring him the most glory. I do not get frustrated in my prayers since I can have confidence that God’s will is perfect . It may not always be what I think He should do. When we are praying, do we really think that our supposed “free” will can change God’s mind? Will we change what He has decreed by our prayers? No, God uses our prayers in the course of enacting His will, but we do not change what He has ordained. He has the ends and the means decreed all the way from eternity past. Christ’s death on the cross went against God’s moral commandment of “Do not murder”, but did God still decree that Christ would die at that exact time in history with those exact circumstances? Yes, he used the sin of man to accomplish His purpose. (He is not the author of sin)
I am sorry this is long, but I feel strongly that Jesus always has His prayers answered.
Emily
That should be "divine" will and not "diving" in the 8th line.. Sorry
Emily
Emily-thanks for the erudite answer! This is more of a rhetorical question of course, and as you point out, leads into Calvinism and other theological mazes. However, I like to keep it simple if I can. So, here are a couple of other thoughts:
1. Ok,Jesus' human nature is asking God if, MAYBE, he could pass up the cross. I don't see how this could be seen as a yes. It is clearly "no". Of course, Jesus as God already knows this (in fact, it as already happened, since God the Father is outside time). So the fully human aspect of Messiah is told no. I am fully human, so I am told no too. The problem is, all of Jesus teachings on prayer seem to say God will always "yes" (to many to list here)
2. True, all believers are united in the Holy Spirit. But this is a positional truth, not volitional. Why would Jesus pray for us to be one if it is automatic when one becomes part of the Kingdom?
Just asking!
Rob
Rob,
I don't think that this is a theological maze, a small issue, or even a debate about Calvinism. This goes at the heart of who Jesus is, and whether we have a sovereign God. If Jesus did not have His prayers answered, then we can have no confidence that our salvation is secure. And if I have to play a part in keeping my salvation, then there's no hope for me.
First, Jesus is asking God if maybe he could pass up the cross, but you leave out the most important part.. "Not my will but yours be done" and to this God agrees. As far as the cross, as you put it, having "already happened", this is not correct. God is both transcendent and immanent, so He works both outside of time and also intimately acts within His creation. To say otherwise, makes God the watchmaker that just created, set the world in motion, and then hoped everything would turn out.
I am not sure what you mean when you say, all of Jesus teachings on prayer seem to say God will always say "yes". God hears our prayers when we pray according to God's will- which being human we do not. Jesus on the other hand always prayed in accordance with God's will.
1 John 5:14 says "This is the confidence which we have before him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us"
We know that the Father always heard Jesus as John 11:41,42 says: "Father I thank you that you have heard me, I knew that you always hear me, but because of the people standing around, I said it so that they may believe that you sent me."
If we say that Jesus may not have had his prayer answered, how can we be certain that any of his other prayers have been answered as well. For example, in the high priestly prayer in John 17- he also prays that the Father would keep the believers in his name and prays that God would sanctify them in the truth.
Jesus functions as our high priest, interceding for us. Is the Father going to ever deny Him when He prays for us on our behalf?
As far as why Jesus would pray for believer's unity when one becomes part of the kingdom. Why would Jesus pray that the Father would "keep them" while Jesus said that no one could pluck believers (sheep) out of His Father's hand? It is because God uses the means of prayer to accomplish His will.
Finally, I think that more is being read into the text with regards to the unity than is actually there. Jesus says nothing about believers being unified in every belief. He says that they will be one.. in faith and love. True believers love one another- 1 John gives this test to us for whether we are truly in the faith.
Thanks for the great discussion:)
Emily
Emily-
It seems as though Rob is asking some basic questions while you are jumping into unresolvable theological debates (you are clearly reformed. That's fine. But realize there are other views out there that are equally "biblical".
The first question seems to be like a kid asking his dad: "Dad,if it's at all possible, I would rather not go to school anymore, but I will do what you say. Can I please stay home?"
"Sorry son, you have to go", says dad. The son acknowledged his dad's authority, but still got a "no". That's what he's saying.
Point two: Christians are divided all over the world on doctrine, practice, morality, authority, etc. IN fact, they are ONLY united on very basic beliefs e.g. the Trinity,the atonement, etc. (for example, I have known lots of reformed types that consider their view the only "biblical" one, which comes across as arrogant to most people)
I think you beg the question when you bring up Jesus praying that believers would be kept in his hand. That is not the point at all (eternal security)-he is only asking if Jesus prayer for unity has been anwered (when Christians say "my prayers have been answered", they mean a yes, don't they?)
Anon- When you say that a non-reformed view of scripture is equally biblical, aren't you in fact denying the existence of absolute truth? After all, how can 2 opposing theological systems both be equally true? If in fact God is sovereign over all His creation, including the salvation of souls, doesn't it follow that man does not have complete autonomy?
Your analogy of the son wanting to stay home from school has already been dealt with. Jesus being the God-Man expresses in His humanity His desire to avoid the wrath of the Father against sin. The key to the passage is Christ praying for the Father's will to be done.
Once again, as far as Christ praying that believers would be one, the verse does not indicate that Christ is praying that believers would not disagree about points of doctrine. The apostolic message has always been the same, repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. All true believers have repented and have put there trust in Christ alone for the salvation of their souls. All others who claim to be Christians but preach another gospel are accursed by God. (Gal: 1:9)
Jesus only answers prayers that are according to His will. 1 John 5:14 says "This is the confidence which we have before him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us"
Finally, I'll ask the question again...How can you be confident that any of Jesus' prayers were answered if in fact the Father has already denied at least 2 of them according to Rob? Are you trusting in yourself to ultimately be saved, or are you trusting in Christ's promise that none of His sheep shall perish?
Jason
Though it seems like you are proving my point about leaning towards arrogance, I will try to respond.
No, two opposing theological views cannot both be right-maybe there is a third possiblity! But to call one "biblical" and the other not, is simply innacurate. Armenians stand on scripture too, after all. Luther and Calvin didn't agree on everything-is one biblical and the other not?
I'm sorry you cannot accept my father/son analogy. To me it's pretty clear.
Read my comment again. Christians are divided on far more than doctrine.
Finally, there are many verses promising yes to prayer-with no qualifier of being in his will e.g. in Luke and in Mark when Jesus talks of having faith to throw a mountain in the sea or the the widow begging the judge.
I would urge you to consider all of scripture, not just the verses that seem to back up your theological postion.
But, I am the first to admit you may be right!
Jason and Emily and Anon-thanks for your educated comments to my off-the-cuff question! It was literally a random thought I had one day, not something I teach or struggle with. I actually believe in the soverignty of God, lest you all think I am in left field her. But I do like to ask questions as I work out my salvation, with fear and trembling.
Anon-I think you understand my questions. Thanks for jumping in.
And J and E- thank you for your well articulated comments! It challenges my thinking and forces healthy self-examination!
I will leave this topic with a quote from a book I read recently, "The Arena of Prayer" by Ben Jennings, who has headed up CAmpus Crusade's prayer ministry for many years:
"Is God, then, in control of everything? Yes, he certainly is. He would not be God otherwise. The way he orchestrates control, however,is in the hands of praying people." p.54.
Rob
Anon- You stated, "Finally, there are many verses promising yes to prayer-with no qualifier of being in his will e.g. in Luke and in Mark when Jesus talks of having faith to throw a mountain in the sea or the the widow begging the judge."
So, is it your assertion that the bible is contradictory? Jesus over and over again states that He answers prayer in His name. Does that mean that every prayer that ends "In Jesus' name, amen" is answered? Of course not! Does it mean that the one praying was lacking in faith if his prayer went unanswered? Of course not! By praying in Jesus' name, you are praying by His authority and according to His will.
You said again, "But to call one "biblical" and the other not, is simply innacurate."
Once again this makes no sense. Are all interpretations of the bible equally valid? Just bc someone says that they are biblical doesn't make it so. The Mormons and JW's use the bible to defend their positions all of the time. If you have two interpretations of a passage and they are contradictory, their can only be 3 options available. Interpretation 1 is true and 2 is false, interpretation 2 is true and 1 is false, or both are false. To say that both may be true or "biblical" is nonsensical.
Finally your comment about being arrogant is one that typically comes from unbelievers. "Are you trying to say that Jesus is the only way to the Father? How arrogant!" You see, if this was merely my opinion, rather than the truth, then I would be completely arrogant to make such a statement. One more analogy..."Do you mean that Jesus is really Jehovah? How arrogant for you to say such a thing. I believe he is Michael the Archangel."
You see, when something is true, and you proclaim it to be so, that isn't arrogance.
Rob, I really enjoy reading your blog! It definitely gets me thinking more critically about things I wouldn't usually think about.
I wanted to respond to Emily and Jason's comment about arrogant comments typically coming from unbelievers. Isn't there a pretty fine line between stating truth in love, and stating truth in, well, un-love? I know it's sometimes hard to interpret what an author's true intentions are, so perhaps I read Emily and Jason's last comment the wrong way, but if I were an unbeliever I think that I would have an awful hard time seeing love in the way the argument was presented. Just an observation. And while I don't necessarily disagree with the points he/she were trying to make, I think that we as Christians really really really REALLY need to respond to each other in love. I think that if an unbeliever were to read some of these last comments they might see us as no better than a feuding Democrat and Republican.
Just my thoughts. Now tear them apart! :)
What was said that was unloving? Who was the one that engaged in ad hominem?
When someone violates the law of non-contradiction and that person is shown where they have erred, is that unloving? Isn't such an argument nonsensical?
In God's magnificent timing an unanswered prayer in the short term can be for our long term or eternal benefit.
If I pray for God to give me a promotion at work and He does not answer right away. It can mean that I am not asking the right question. My prayer life needs to be dynamic, and not stubborn until I get my way. If I hear silence in my petitions to God, I might need to consider phrasing my question different. Rather than asking for a promotion at work, I need to Ask God to help me do better with my current job. The result could be that my boss will see my performance as improved and then He will give me the promotion. The result ends the same. I get a promotion at work, but my attitude is one of contentment and thankfulness to God for providing a job for me rather than an attitude of contempt toward God in not giving me what I feel I deserve in a better job. Prayer is about lining up behind God's will.
Jesus' unanswered prayers may just be under a divine timing, like His prayer in John 17 for the unity of believers. They will be answered, when the time is right according to God's timetable not ours.
Just some more random thoughts that are related to unanswered prayers.
Forgive my indulgence in "ad hominem." Obviously I'm way out of my league here, because I thought ad moninem was the rapper who starred in the movie 8-Mile. Oh wait, that's Eminem. Perhaps you can see my confusion.
Obviously you are passionate and knowledgable about your beliefs. For that I applaud you. I am clearly not on the same intellectual plane as the rest of the readers of this blog, which I need to remind myself of next time I'm tempted to post.
Thanks Rob for the honest and practical question (in true Rob fashion).
1 cent: I don’t think canned, educated answers do much for real, living people in general. What about the uneducated homeless man who is told to pray “in God’s will” for a job or food and doesn’t get it? Who is honestly going to feed them John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible? That is as bad as making them sit through another irrelevant, verbatim sermon before they can have a sandwich. What happened to honesty, personal relevance, and teaching by example?
1 cent: Just because God answers prayer in accordance to His will doesn’t help the everyday situation of knowing exactly what His will is or where His line of intervention is positioned. Rob’s original examples of “rejected” prayers that seemed to be in God’s will were: people to coming to Christ, a prodigal child to come back to his faith, a marriage to be restored.
I often wonder what gives us confidence in prayer or can/should we have confidence? What is the correlation between faith and confidence? Maybe that was part of Rob’s original question…
Jessie,
I think prayer (answered or not) is a mindset of relationship with God. If one does not pray (listen/talk to God), then one is choosing a solitary life or at least an earthbound life. 'Praying for answers' sounds like a child going to the 'fishing pond' booth at a fair.
Prayer is 99% just acknowledging a real relationship then living the relationship. Maybe 1% should be requesting favors. It is like having a wife that you talk to ... or not. Does she exist if you don't talk to her? Yes, but that isn't a relationship? If the relationship is based only on requests ... "How about sex tonight?" What kind of relationship is that?
You just live a relationship. You don't count the answers to requests and expect to have a good relationship.
The relationship of the Jew to Yahwah is one of obedience and blessing. That sounds more like a listening (or learning) prayer time rather than an asking prayer time.
Emily and Jason and anon,
The rationalistic rights and wrongs of systematic theology (Reformed Theology or other) are so far off of 'Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life' that it misses the wholeness of who Jesus is. Jesus does not teach in linear logical lectures. He teaches in parables. These are closer to 'truth' than Calvin's "Institutes", which bores me silly. God is way beyond our rationalistic attempts to logically determine the correct way to think about these things.
There are Biblical paradoxes and difficult contradictions that defy logic. Indeed, something can be true and not true biblically! (e.g., "Sons will be punished for their fathers' sins"--Jeremiah & "Sons will not be punished for their fathers' sins"--Ezekiel).
Our task is to be like Jesus ... not to think correct theology. About the only theology I hold tightly to now days is
(1) there is one God,
(2) God is separate from the
universe (holy),
(3) God speaks,
(4) God calls us to good
relationships
(5) I fail in my relationships
and need forgiveness,
(6) God forgives those who ask
for forgiveness and who
forgive others.
I ponder whether only (5) and (6) are all God expects of people. I have known people of minimal cerebral abilities who were very humble and godly. They put me to shame.
After that I am not sure about much. I love pondering the paradoxes of God and humanity ... but only with the acknowledgment that "I see as in a mirror dimly." Uncertainty in many things is our lot.
Vince- You said, "He teaches in parables. These are closer to 'truth' than Calvin's "Institutes",
So why was Jesus teaching in parables? Was it bc it was the most effective means for relaying truth? Did He do so in order to explain the kingdom of God more easily to others? Let's see what Jesus had to say as to why He spoke in parables..
Matt 13:11,13-15 "to you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to them it has not been granted...Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled which says, you will keep on hearing but will not understand; you will keep on seeing but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them. But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears because they hear."
Doesn't seem to comport with your understanding of the use of parables.
You said, "There are Biblical paradoxes and difficult contradictions that defy logic. Indeed, something can be true and not true biblically! (e.g., "Sons will be punished for their fathers' sins"--Jeremiah & "Sons will not be punished for their fathers' sins"--Ezekiel)."
Uh, perhaps you need to re-read these passages. One is referring to how God will deal with men in the new covenant and the other refers to the old.
You said, "After that I am not sure about much. I love pondering the paradoxes of God and humanity ... but only with the acknowledgment that "I see as in a mirror dimly." Uncertainty in many things is our lot."
Umm, are you really proud of yourself that those "truths are all that you have gleaned from God's word? Perhaps you need to sit down with a bible in your hands for more than 30 seconds and then you will encounter the God of the bible, not the one you have managed to invent.
Jesse said, "cent: I don’t think canned, educated answers do much for real, living people in general. What about the uneducated homeless man who is told to pray “in God’s will” for a job or food and doesn’t get it?"
I thought that we were have a theological discussion here. Sometimes these discussions involve more than mere platitudes.
so your answer to the homeless man would be what? "Oh, God loves you so much and wants to get you a job, the problem is that He just can't do that for you right now. Sure He may have created the heavens and the earth, but providing a job, who do you think He is, God?" Or would you tell him, "Just pray with all of your might and cross your fingers and toes and maybe God will see that you are serious about this?"
I on the other hand would explain to the man that I worship a sovereign Go who will accomplish all of His good pleasure and may be using trials such as these to either show you your need for Him or conform you to the image of Christ through sufferings.
You said, "1 cent: Just because God answers prayer in accordance to His will doesn’t help the everyday situation of knowing exactly what His will is or where His line of intervention is positioned."
It is not your job to figure out the secret will of God nor can you do so. It is your responsibility to follow His preceptive will which is laid out in His word and walk in such a manner that is pleasing to Him. Prayer should be, as Jonathan said our submitting to God's will and asking Him to align our desires with it.
You said, "original examples of “rejected” prayers that seemed to be in God’s will were: people to coming to Christ, a prodigal child to come back to his faith, a marriage to be restored."
You see, here is where a little systematic theology could help you. If you understood that God is working all things after the counsel of His own will and that His word never returns void, but will accomplish that which it was sent for, you would not feel as though God were not in control.
As it stands, you seem to be saying that God is trying and trying to make this world a better place, but is unable to do so because of the sovereignty of man's will.
Wow!
I spoke too pedantically, so forgive my arrogance. But I still think there is wisdom maintaining a bit of humble uncertainty when interpreting the Bible. I trust that my daily rumination on God's scripture will move me ever closer to His image, but I also must allow that another Christian may be 'touching a different part of the elephant' and, thus, might come to different conclusions. The more we talk, the more we study, the more we may agree, but not always.
I will strive to maintain the unity of our relationship rather than strive to impose my view of scripture. Again, I do have truth claims (God is one ... God is separate ... Jesus is God ... humanity needs saving). Upon these things I base my life, but I prefer to give wide berth to allow God to accept whomever God wants to accept. God is probably a lot more forgiving about misunderstandings in theology than we are.
P.S. By the way, rationalist approaches to truth (systematic logic) are more Greek than Jewish. This is one of the reasons Jesus does not teach a systematic theology like Paul does. Jesus teaches in stories and by example. These are 'wisdom' methods of teaching of the Jewish culture. Paul is talking to gentile greek-thinkers in his epistles, so he uses systematic arguments. But he is not teaching 'Christian reasoning', he is trying to teach Jewish wisdom using Greek philosophical methods. I prefer starting with the life of Jesus in the Gospels and interpret Paul's letters ... not the other way around. Thus, I am trying to approach the Bible from a Jewish Wisdom manner of thinking rather than a Greek Reason manner of thinking. Wisdom thinking is not so tidy as Euclid's Elements, but it probably gets closer to the truth of God.
I am reluctant to respond, but I have a condition called "Last Worditis", so...
Systematic Theology will not save a single soul. It is only belief and trust in Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God, that will (John 3:16-17). We are not to be ignorant of God's word found in the bible (1 Peter 3:15). The bible gives us the knowledge about God, about man's relationship to Him, and also about man's relationship to each other. However, it is not the knowledge that saves or transforms lives. It is knowing God that saves and changes us.
Prayer is our part of the conversation with God, and His word the Bible is God speaking to us. The word of God opens our minds and hearts to be touched by the power of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 4:12; John 15:17). It is the lamp to light our path in life (Psalm 119:105). God's word will not return void (Isaiah 55:11), but its result will not always be positive. Please refer to the Parable of the Sower in Mark 4:1-20.
God's word is much like prayer. The answer or result will not always be positive. And silence is often a "no" or "not yet" for our prayers and also for the ones offered by Jesus. But for the rest of us, everyone minus Jesus, the silence may also be a sin problem that must be resolved through confession and repentance before God will tell us His answers for our petitions.
Jonathan, well put. I agree on everything you've said, but I won't insist on everything you've said. God is God and I won't insist God abide by my understanding of the Gospel. However, the Gospel is GOOD NEWS so why not proclaim it as best as we understand it!!
Vince- In the list that you provided of "truths" that you were certain of, I am curious as to why the gospel was missing. You mentioned nothing about the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ. You mentioned nothing about how a man is justified before God. You mentioned nothing of the trinity. You mentioned nothing about why a man needs to be saved and what or who he is saved from.
I am betting that most Muslims
would agree with your list.
You seem to want to pit the words of Paul against those of Jesus. Did not the same Holy Spirit inspire both the gospels and epistles? Are the words of Jesus more authoritative than Paul who was writing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
Jonathan- I agree that systematic theology doesn't save anyone. However in order to make sense of God's word such a system is necessary. Otherwise one is left in a state of confusion regarding the attributes of God, the condition and state of man, justification, imputation, and a myriad of other truths which are necessary for the child of God.
Vince- By the way, why would seek to interpret Paul's letters through the gospels. You do realize that during Christ's time on earth, He was preaching to men that were under the Old Covenant. Such a hermeneutic is just as unprofitable as interpreting the New Testament by the Old.
Emily and Jason, I don't appreciate your over simplifications or assumptions. I find little need to respond to your arrogance. For those of us who realize that we don't have everything figured out and that we live in an extremely complex world, thanks for listening.
emily and jason,
I have got to chuckle a bit. My most recent understanding of the New Testament (Paul in particular) is through the use of Old Testament Prophets to interpret what Paul is trying to say in the New Testament. The Old Testament is all he had.
It just goes to show you (or maybe just me) that there are a number of ways to approach Scripture from Scripture.
As to your other comments, I do hold to the Trinity, Christ, salvation, etc as part of my doctrine. ... It is just that my mind is not brilliant so I hold to my understanding of those things lightly. It is more of a comment of my abilities not Scripture or God.
Jesse- Huh? Which assumptions and over simplifications are you referring to?
Once again, rather than responding to my arguments you have decided to revert to name calling.
Finally, rather than glorying in your ignorance about not having it all figured out, perhaps you should do the one thing that you deplore; study the bible and formulate a systematic theology so that you can make sense of the scriptures and this complex world.
Vince- You hold to your understanding of those things lightly? Are you saying that your understanding of the gospel is fuzzy? What can you possibly offer the world through a gospel that you aren't even completely convinced of?
Is not the gospel the power of God unto salvation? Did not Paul anathematize anyone that would preach a different gospel than he preached and you aren't even convinced of which gospel that is? Are you sure that you yourself aren't under the anathema of Paul?
Hey Rob, how about you put an end to this debate? Maybe you could move on to something more along the lines of having faith like a child. Let's allow the overly intellectual types to paralyze themselves with their over-analysis and arrogance someplace else.
I already know how this post will be reponded to, so how about I just provide you with an outline of how to do so:
1--Something about glorying in my ignorance
2--Something along the lines of how is correcting someone with your brand of truth arrogant
3--Make sure to use lots of words that the average person with a bachelor's degree has to look up (preferably in a foreign or obsolete language)
4--Finally, make sure that I feel completely stupid and uneducated. In fact, it would be better if you got me to question my salvation, since I'm sure you're a much better judge of that than I am.
Good thing God fogives sin, because I'm sure I just committed a "platitude" of them.
Hey, I'm just being honest.
I am going to jump in here.. I'm sorry if we have come across as being arrogant by asserting the perspecuity of the scriptures. God has made his preceptive will and the plan of salvation known through His word. We can trust that when Jesus prays, his prayers are answered. Since we don't pray as we should, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us according to God's will. None of us are perfect in our theology, but that does not mean that there are multiple interpretations that are correct. God had one interpretation in mind when he inspired the scriptures. We take the study of scriptures seriously and will defend the gospel at the expense of being ridiculed by the world. We appreciate healthy dialogue with believers as we try to refine one another, but since this dialogue seems to be deteriorating.. I think its best to stop.
Emily
"When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom>" Prov.11:2
Anon- Nice comment. What is humility? Is it repeating the question that the serpent asked in the garden, "Hath God said?" Is humility saying God has spoken through His word, but I can't know for sure what He has said? Did God inspire His word so that men could come to know Him or so that they could continue walking in darkness wondering what in fact the gospel is?
The last anonymous poster mentioned something about having childlike faith. What does this mean? Did Jesus want us to trust him completely for our salvation as a child trusts his parents. Of course. Conversely, is He saying that we should be ignorant of the majority of God's word?
Heb 5:12 "For by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes of only milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their sense trained to discern good and evil."
When someone can't articulate what the gospel is or how a man is justified before God, how can such a person be saved?
When someone doesn't understand the role of prayer in a believer's life, do you think this is going to create problems in their Christian walk?
When someone does understand that God is sovereignly working all things after the counsel of His own will, do you think they'll have a better understanding of why God allows for great suffering in the life of the believer?
Since when is it a virtue to be ignorant of God;'s word? Why do people insist upon blind faith when the bible says to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us?
Since Emily and Jason confidently offered their response to the homeless man, and for the sake of seeing systematic theology work itself into the everyday, I want to write out a possible scenario.
Just south of the Spanish border at the dump on Mount Gurugu there stands the silhouettes of hundreds of men only partially visible through the smoke. They are crouched over, wading through the burning sea of refuse, sifting through ht filth in search of some edible morsel. This is their only source of food. Dozens of men are covered with rashes, cuts, and boils. Some of their stomachs are protruding abnormally from under their tattered shirts, a sure sign that parasites live within. Dozens approach your vehicle but you audibly hear one ask, “Why is this happening?”
[from post 17] “I on the other hand would explain to the man that I worship a sovereign God who will accomplish all of His good pleasure and may be using trials such as these to either show you your need for Him or conform you to the image of Christ through sufferings.”
Just then shots ring out from the Moroccan police and military that are jointly carrying out their weekly raids on the camps, stealing anything of value and burning the rest. Tragically, the man who asked is shot and killed.
I’m not sure that God is trying to conform everyone to the image of Christ through sufferings. I'm not sure that anyone's systematic theology has it right. It seems like there is a lot of pain and complexity in this world that is not explainable as an act of God, or maybe that I just don’t want it to be.
Jesse- You said it yourself. You have nothing to offer the world. Your answer is, "Well I believe in God, and I have been told that He is omnipotent, in fact even the bible states that He is working all things after the counsel of His will, but I guess I just don't believe it. I suppose bad things happen to good people."
Now for a biblical response.
James 1:2 Consider it all joy my brethren when you encounter various trials , knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Romans 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Keep in mind that the preceding verses apply only to believers in Christ.
What about the unbeliever that is suffering? Is God under any obligation to alleviate his suffering? Of course not, mercy is never something that can be demanded. The fact that such an individual has air to breathe should cause him to praise His creator. Instead, what does he do, well he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. (Romans 1:18-25) Because that which is known of God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
vs. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
This my friend is the state of unregenerate man.
Do you profess to be a Christian? If so, then why don't you believe God's word? Why speculate on these matters when God's word addresses them so clearly.
Well, I guess I had no idea my questions would result in a record number of comments. But I have to say I agree with Emily, and so, as the author of this blog, I hearby declare this discussion closed! After all, as I said earlier, my questions were mostly rhetorical anyway. The points being debated now have been debated for hundreds of years-and will continue to be.
So, in the name of Christian unity, let us move on-upward and onward!
Rob
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