More on "the Question"
This may be my last post for a while, as we are leaving for most of June to visit family and work at a summer missions project. I don't know about computer access, so we will see!
Thank you for all the responses on skydiving moms-I think Vince's response wins the prize so far! Now here is what TWO Christian marriage counselors told my wife and I some years ago:
Both men were into adventure sports, including mountain climbing in Africa, wilderness river rafting in winter, etc. Both their wives had problems with this (the men were both dads) and it stressed them out, worried them, etc. Both men told us it was manipulation for their wives to ask them not to go-it was important in these guy's lives, they said- even a spiritual experience -to do these risky activities and besides, they took all the right precautions. Their wives had no right to "control" them. One would assume it would work both ways-in fact we have had friends where the mom did go sky diving and the husband went along with it. BUT....
I questioned their thinking at the time this way (and still do): If we are called to love our wives sacrificially, wouldn't it be the more loving thing to forego things that worry them and cause them anguish? Don't we have the responsibility to be there for our kids? Is cheating death really a "spiritual" experience or just an adrenaline rush? (Studies have shown that bungie-jumping, hang-gliding types are, in fact, "hooked" on their own adredaline). And where in scripture is that kind of experience even hinted at? On the contrary, the spiritual priority is to put others first, not our own "highs". It seems to me that the far more godly thing to do is NOT go, but spend more time with our wives and children (as most fathers need to do).
Both counselors had no response to this. In fact, one of them ended up including adultery in his adventures and left his wife and the Lord. In addition, both taught egalatarian marriage (equal roles), which seems a little contradictory here.
If that stimulates any thoughts, please comment!
P.S. My father seems to be stable and we will be spending time with him next week. This may be the last Father's Day together. If you think of us, I would appreciate prayer that my Dad would go to his Lord with a smile and the knowledge he has had a good life and has been well loved.
Thank you for all the responses on skydiving moms-I think Vince's response wins the prize so far! Now here is what TWO Christian marriage counselors told my wife and I some years ago:
Both men were into adventure sports, including mountain climbing in Africa, wilderness river rafting in winter, etc. Both their wives had problems with this (the men were both dads) and it stressed them out, worried them, etc. Both men told us it was manipulation for their wives to ask them not to go-it was important in these guy's lives, they said- even a spiritual experience -to do these risky activities and besides, they took all the right precautions. Their wives had no right to "control" them. One would assume it would work both ways-in fact we have had friends where the mom did go sky diving and the husband went along with it. BUT....
I questioned their thinking at the time this way (and still do): If we are called to love our wives sacrificially, wouldn't it be the more loving thing to forego things that worry them and cause them anguish? Don't we have the responsibility to be there for our kids? Is cheating death really a "spiritual" experience or just an adrenaline rush? (Studies have shown that bungie-jumping, hang-gliding types are, in fact, "hooked" on their own adredaline). And where in scripture is that kind of experience even hinted at? On the contrary, the spiritual priority is to put others first, not our own "highs". It seems to me that the far more godly thing to do is NOT go, but spend more time with our wives and children (as most fathers need to do).
Both counselors had no response to this. In fact, one of them ended up including adultery in his adventures and left his wife and the Lord. In addition, both taught egalatarian marriage (equal roles), which seems a little contradictory here.
If that stimulates any thoughts, please comment!
P.S. My father seems to be stable and we will be spending time with him next week. This may be the last Father's Day together. If you think of us, I would appreciate prayer that my Dad would go to his Lord with a smile and the knowledge he has had a good life and has been well loved.
posted by Rob | 8:39 AM
4 Comments:
I would explore what role these adventures played in the lives of the men. Is it idolatry, adultery(replacing thier wives) or healthy activity. I think it could easily fall into any of those categories.
The wife's request that they stop certainly ought to be considered. In marriage both partners belong to each other, they are one flesh and as such the bodies of each(and their activities) belong to the other. So the women weren't being manipulative, but properly asserting their rights within the relationship.
But a marriage relationship isn't command and obey from either party. It's assert and discuss. There isn't a one size fits all answer. The role these activies play in the men's lives and in their relationshps determine the solution they come up with. Since the women see it as a problem it's a problem, even if the men disagree. One thing's for certain, the men cut off conversation and do a huge disservice to their wives when they claim 'manipulation.' I suspect they're using that word for their own manipultive purposes. My two cents :). Cool blog Rob. My prayers are with you and your Dad.
Travis Norton
Helena, MT
I’m going to start with a disclaimer. I am young and unmarried so take what I say with a grain of salt. . .
I agree with Travis. Communication, what a refreshing idea! Adventure sports may come with a few risks, but are in no way as dangerous or reckless as failing to bring honesty, reflective listening, prayer, and unconditional/sacrificial love to the table. If the safety to sit down and actually talk things out with love and understanding does not exist within the intimacy and biblically guided Christian marriage, what kind of chance can any other system have? Nationally, Christian ideals are watered down and shanghaied to inflate political platforms, are persecuted with a blood thirstiness that makes the great white from Jaws look like Lassie, and misconstrued to act as a general scapegoat to any Tom, Dick or Henry with a “cause”. It’s a pretty dismal picture, and then you get folks like Rob and Miriam who just shine in their commitment to each other and to God, and who (gasp)admittedly spend time talking to each other. I love families like that, such a breath of fresh air, living strong holds among the failing systems around us. When conflict comes, it should be a time to persevere, to consult the Bible, to talk and experience again how big love can be. I recognize that I am sounding like quite the idealist right now. I can’t pretend to understand the challenges of marriage; I haven’t spent time studying and thinking and living it. But I know our God is perfect, and connectedness and relationship through His hand in marriage sounds like an opportunity for a real, exciting rush, the fruit of which ought to be very, very good.
Emily C.
Equal roles or roles of submission and authority?
The question requires a thoughtful response on the original intent of scripture. Indeed, the early Church Father's were closest to the Lord's Apostles and can enlighten original intent of difficult versus in scripture. Let's examine one of my favorites, Tertullian. As men, we can all agree on the character and value of women in general. We join Tertullian in his soliloquy on women ...
(from 'On Women and Fallen Angels')
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I mean, of the first sin, and the odium of human perdition. Genesis says:
"In pains and in anxieties dost thou bear children, woman; and toward thine husband is thy inclination, and he lords over thee."
And do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age. The guilt must of necessity live too.
You are the devil's gateway.
You are the unsealer of that forbidden tree.
You are the first deserter of the divine law.
You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack.
You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your death, even the Son of God had to die.
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Oh, Tertullian, you are a man's man. A husband must stand as lord against the cursed creature, woman, who is placed in submission to man.
Amen
Vince Eccles
PS. Please, don't show this to Kathy.
As for the blogspot question I will out of necessity be brief:
Our marriage is a picture of the relationship between the Church and Christ. Christ, the groom, is definitely the head of the Church, who is His bride. The relationship is a picture of mutual love and respect, and particularly sacrifice as pertains to the husband. As to the skydiving illustration, it is the husbands responsibility to listen to his wife, and to understand why this is such a passionate desire (he may find out it's not about skydiving). Out of his respect and love he should research the real risks (i.e the real probability of dying as compared to his wife taking a roadtrip with the mini-van), and investigate the credibility of the skydiving company. If after all of this, and through a prayerful heart, he is convinced that his wife should not pursue this adventure, he should explain his reasoning as well as his intense desire for her well-being and that of their children. He should help her look for alternative but less risky hobbies that might achieve similar purposes (better yet a hobby that they could engage in together). If she still insists, it is the husbands headship responsibility as entrusted by God to say "no", in the same tone of love and respect and not to "lord it over her".
With all of this said, the case scenario above is usually a mute issue in harmonious marriages. It is rare that those who are so deeply in love, where good communication is paramount, are finding themselves so at odds that all of the above would be necessary. Isn't that the way of our Lord, to make obsolete even the question posed?
All my love to you both,
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
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